ue a Refund？ Exposing The Climate Scanda
this is a much darker world than what
这是一个比什么更黑暗的世界，是的，
yeah it's crazy there are allegations
这很疯狂，有人指控
that there are human rights abuses being
carried out in these forests just from s
这些森林中存在侵犯人权行为，仅从图像中
images you can see like huge SES to the
你就可以看到，森林的巨大SES
forest have been lost this is Vera's
已经消失，这是维拉的
stamp of approval if I get a chance I'm
认可标志，如果我 有机会我
going to ask Vera about this they're
会问维拉这件事，他们是
there to safeguard the Integrity of the
为了维护
entire system they significant concerned
整个系统的完整性，他们非常
about people like being scared to talk
担心人们害怕谈论
about what they're doing it's not about
他们正在做的事情，这与
my willingness to speak about what our
我是否愿意谈论我们的事情无关
CH team wants to do I I don't know the
CH 团队想要做我我不知道答案，
answer right
you
你猜
got my name is Matt Shay I'm a
对了我的名字是马特·谢伊（Matt Shay）我是一名
journalist I travel around the world for
记者我环游世界是为了
stories and also for fun I eat meat I
故事，也是为了乐趣我吃肉我
drive I have a dog who also eats meat I
开车我有一只狗也吃肉我 我
feel bad about my impact on the planet
对我对地球的影响感到难过
and it doesn't help that everywhere you
，这无济于事的是，现在你所看到的任何地方都发生
look these days there's another flood or
了另一场洪水或
a fire but at the same time all the big
火灾，但与此同时，
polluters on the planet are saying
地球上所有的大污染者都在说
they're reducing their carbon foot
他们正在减少他们的碳足迹
Footprints to Net Zero we all know that
净足迹 零我们都知道
your carbon footprint is the amount of
你的碳足迹是
global warming gases you emit over a
你一年内排放的全球变暖气体的数量，
year this is important because scientist
这很重要，因为科学家
say we have to keep temperatures below
说，
1.5° of warming if we want to avoid a
如果我们想避免
catastrophic climate crisis it turns out
灾难性的气候危机，我们必须将温度保持在 1.5° 以下。事实证明，
many of these Mega corporations aren't
许多 这些大型企业并没有
reducing their greenhouse gas emissions
as much as they say they are many of
像他们所说的那样减少温室气体排放量，他们
their net zero plans include something
的许多净零计划都包括
called carbon offsetting offsetting
所谓的碳抵消项目，抵消
projects often involve planting or
项目通常涉及在某处种植或
protecting a forest somewhere and saying
保护森林，并说
that the carbon suck up by those trees
这些树木吸收的碳
cancels out all the pollution that you
会取消 把你
spewed out into the air somewhere else
排放到空气中的所有污染物都排放到其他地方，
it turns out the whole idea of the
事实证明，碳足迹的整个概念
carbon footprint was popularized by a PR
是由
agency working for a major oil company I
一家大型石油公司工作的公关机构推广的，我
find it hard to believe that all these
很难相信所有这些
polluting companies are really
污染公司真的在
eliminating so many of their emissions
消除这些污染，所以 他们的许多排放量
someone has to be profiting from all
必须有人从这一切中获利
this I'm going to look up how to
我要查找如何
calculate my carbon footprint carbon
计算我的碳足迹 碳
footprint calculator I live in an
足迹计算器 我住在
apartment building my diet is average
公寓楼 我的饮食是平均
omnivore what is your average total
杂食动物 你平均
weekly travel via above ground rail if
每周通过地上铁路的总旅行是多少 如果
you know the answer of that question off
你立刻就知道这个问题的答案，那
top of your head you're you're weird
你就很奇怪了，
that's insane so it says for $153 I can
这太疯狂了，所以它说只要 153 美元，我就可以
neutralize my footprint by quote
通过引用来消除我的足迹，
offsetting the idea is if I pay this
抵消这个想法是，如果我付钱给这个
organization to save a rainforce
组织来在某个地方拯救一支雨力，
somewhere that then makes it fine to fly
那么 可以飞
all around the world and live an amazing
遍世界各地，过上美好的
life $153 done I'm absolved of all my
生活 153 美元 完成了
sins if it was that simple then
如果这么简单的话，我所有的罪孽都被免除了 那么
why why are emissions even a
为什么排放量甚至成为一个
problem so I've been looking into this
问题，所以我一直在研究这种
carbon footprint offset Trend and it
碳足迹抵消趋势和
looks like almost every company you can
看起来几乎所有你能
think of is doing it now shell Disney
想到的公司现在都在这样做 壳牌 迪士尼
Microsoft delu Chanel Amazon all of
微软 delu 香奈儿 亚马逊 所有
these companies have bought carbon
这些公司都购买了碳
offsets although many are now cooling on
补偿，尽管
the idea after some damning journalistic
在一些令人震惊的新闻
exposes if our entire future is in the
报道后，如果我们的整个未来都掌握在他们
hands of this carbon offsetting scheme
手中，许多公司现在对这个想法冷静下来 这个碳抵消计划
how do we know that it actually works
我们怎么知道它确实有效？
I've on my way to meet a guardian
我正在去见一位名叫
journalist named Patrick Greenfield
帕特里克·格林菲尔德（Patrick Greenfield）的卫报记者，
who's covered carbon offsetting programs
他非常批判性地报道了碳抵消计划，
quite
critically so what is a carbon offset
那么什么是碳抵消，
and are they any good very simply carbon
它们有什么好处，非常简单，碳
offsets are magical tokens that you can
抵消是神奇的 你可以购买代币
buy to cancel out your emissions right
来抵消你的排放量，
these these carbon credits are meant to
这些碳信用额意味着
represent uh one ton of carbon that's
呃一吨碳，这些碳
either been removed from the atmosphere
要么是从大气中去除的，
or is an avoided emission to answer if
要么是避免排放的，要回答
they're any good or not that's
它们是否有好处，这很
complicated right a lot of very bad I
复杂，对吧 很多非常糟糕的事情我
read in one of your articles it said
在你的一篇文章中读到，它说
that 90% of rainforest carbon offsetting
90% 的雨林碳抵消
is basically is that true so the biggest
基本上是真的，所以
companies in the world often want to
世界上最大的公司经常想要
protect particular areas of rainforest
保护雨林的特定区域，
they can point to an area and say we
他们可以指出一个区域并说我们
have kept that standing and it turns out
已经 保持这一立场，事实证明，
actually many of these schemes are not
这些计划中的许多计划
stopping any deforestation at all or
根本没有停止任何森林砍伐，也没有
stopping very small amounts so how are
停止非常少量的森林砍伐，所以
they allowed to do this companies when
当
they're looking for these credit credits
他们在寻找这些信贷信贷时，
when they're looking for good ones seek
当他们在寻找好的信贷信贷时，他们如何被允许做这些公司
out ones approved by gold standard or
寻找获得金本位或维拉批准的组织
Vera Vera are the biggest they are a
维拉是最大的组织，他们是
nonprofit based in Washington so this
位于华盛顿的非营利组织，所以
organization Vera what's your view on
维拉这个组织你对他们有什么看法，
them they are the the Guardians and
他们是守护者，
they're there to safeguard the Integrity
他们在那里保护
of the the system they say what's real
系统的完整性，他们说了什么 真实的
and what isn't we need to trust them
，什么不是我们需要相信他们
they need to be using the best possible
他们需要使用最好的
science Net Zero simple we need to be in
科学净零简单我们需要
balance with the world in terms of
在碳排放方面与世界保持平衡
carbon emissions right what we're
我们所
putting out needs to balance with what's
推出的需要与正在
being sucked back in and that's that's
发生的保持平衡 吸回来，这就是
what we absolutely need to be correct
我们绝对需要正确
about for this entire thing to work and
对待整个事情的运作和
to survive yeah the future of humanity
生存是的，人类的未来
relies on it I mean this Market is as I
依赖于它，我的意思是这个市场正如我
said it's totally unregulated so a lot
所说，它完全不受监管，所以很多
and a lot of people have become very
很多人 我已经变得非常
wealthy I think of hot air in in some
富有，我认为在某些情况下是空谈，
cases right it it appears there's
对吧，看起来
actually like this is a much darker
实际上这是一个比
world than what crazy I didn't realize
疯狂的世界更黑暗的世界，我没有意识到
like there was a really strong push back
from people in the carbon offsetting
碳补偿世界中的人们确实有强烈的抵制，
world so what do you mean by a strong
所以 你说的强烈
push back back what I my strong push
反击是什么意思 我强烈
back um no I I think is it okay if I
反击 嗯不 我想如果我
don't if that's right
不这样做也没关系 如果这是对的 是的
yeah I wanted to find out more so
我想了解更多所以
Patrick put me on to a couple of
帕特里克让我参加了几个
upcoming carbon offsetting events where
即将到来的碳抵消
all the big players were attending one
所有大公司都参加的活动之一，其中一项
of them called corporate investments in
名为“
forestry and biodiversity previously
林业和生物多样性企业投资”，之前曾
disinvited Patrick from one of their
邀请帕特里克参加他们的一项
events while my team got on the case
活动，而我的团队正在处理此案，
getting access I started digging a bit
获得访问权，我开始深入研究
into the world of offsetting and what I
抵消的世界，我
found wasn't good and in fact it was
发现的是 不好，事实上，
pretty shocking all over the global
south from Kenya to Peru there were
从肯尼亚到秘鲁，整个南半球国家都感到非常震惊，有
reports of forest offsetting projects
报道称，森林补偿项目
that seemed to be doing more harm than
似乎
good to both the planet and to local
对地球和当地
people there seem to be a high number of
人民弊大于利，似乎有很多
particularly problematic projects in
Cambodia where there's widespread
柬埔寨的问题特别严重，
corruption and illegal logging the
腐败和非法伐木现象普遍存在，
authoritarian Cambodian government has
柬埔寨专制政府
been accused of arrests and assaults on
被指控逮捕和袭击
environmental activists I managed to get
环保活动人士，我设法联系到了
hold of an award-winning Cambodian
一位
journalist called Lang ouch who beaten
名叫 Lang ouch 的获奖柬埔寨记者，他
and imprisoned for trying to expose
因试图揭露真相而遭到殴打和监禁
illegal
非
Laing he sent me footage of the
法莱恩他给我发了
environmental abuses he has tried to
他试图揭露的环境破坏的录像，
uncover you have from international
你从国际
organization from the international
组织，从国际
downer from the B leader how to stop the
镇压者，从B领导人如何阻止
human right of Cho stop illegal loing in
Cho的人权，停止卡迪亚的非法移民
Cadia and stop tble business with
，停止与
Vietnam and China my team had got us
越南和中国的生意，我的 团队让我们
filming access to the corporate
拍摄了
investments in forestry and biodiversity
林业和生物多样性
event I noticed that there were a number
活动的企业投资 我注意到
of speakers at the event from Vera I was
活动中有很多来自维拉的发言者 我
determined to ask them about their
决定向他们询问他们
projects in
在
Cambodia okay so we have gone through
柬埔寨的项目 好吧，所以我们已经通过
the official route to get access so they
官方途径 获得访问权，所以他们
should have our names but they also have
应该知道我们的名字，但他们
ghosted us for the past 24 hours it's
也在过去 24 小时内对我们进行了鬼魂调查，
basically a who's who of every major
基本上是英国每家大公司的名人
company in the UK shell glenor trafigura
录 壳牌格伦托克
so basically all of the biggest oil and
所以基本上所有最大的石油和
mining companies seem to want to be
矿业公司似乎都想
investing in biodiversity and and Forest
投资 在生物多样性和森林
protection what is going on so Patrick
保护方面正在发生什么，所以帕特里克·
Greenfield just sent us the voicemail
格林菲尔德（Patrick Greenfield）刚刚向我们发送了
that he was sent when he was disinvited
他被取消参加
from this exact same conference we've
同一会议的邀请时发送的语音邮件，我们
had a number of concering conversations
with to 30% of our speakers responses if
与 30% 的发言人进行了多次对话，如果
a large number of them are uncomfortable
他们中的很多人
with you being in the room we have no
对你在房间里感到不舒服，我们
other choice but to
别无选择，但
um it's always a bad idea to disinvite a
嗯，取消邀请
journalist from your event because it
记者参加你的活动总是一个坏主意，因为这
just makes it look you're hiding
只会让人觉得你在
something as soon as we arrived both of
我们到达时就隐瞒了一些事情
the organizers approached us and took us
组织者走近我们，把我们拉到
aside they seemed nervous about us being
一边，他们似乎对我们在
there do you feel the offet is just load
那里感到紧张，你觉得offet只是负载
sh or do you think it's you taking a
还是你认为这是你在
political oh wow getting right into the
政治哦哇，
nitty-gritty from the offset it's been
从他们已经经历过的抵消中直接进入实质内容
they've been getting you know bad bad
press from the guardian principally and
主要是让您了解《卫报》的负面新闻，
we don't agree necessarily with what the
我们不一定同意《
guardian is saying I think that's great
卫报》所说的内容我认为这很好
I mean you know we're just coming at it
我的意思是您知道我们只是
from an objective point of view and
从客观的角度来看待它并
looking to find out facts and find out
寻求找出答案 事实并了解
more about it you know Guardian
更多有关它的信息，你知道监护人
guardian hate
监护人讨厌
them everyone hates them everyone their
他们每个人都讨厌他们每个人他们
significant concern about people like
对人们的极大关注就像
being scared to talk about what they're
害怕谈论他们在
doing so do you want to come up on stage
做什么所以你想和
with me and if yeah we can do that for
我一起上台吗如果是的话我们可以做
sure hi everyone yeah I just wanted to
大家好，是的，我只是想
quickly introduce myself my name is Matt
快速介绍一下自己，我的名字是马特
and we're just doing a documentary about
，我们正在制作一部关于
the whole carbon offsetting Trend about
整个市场碳抵消趋势的纪录片，
the market we really want to just
我们真的只想
understand what you like about it what
了解您喜欢它什么，
you don't like what's working what isn't
不喜欢它什么 就像什么有效什么
working I've never had to introduce
无效 我从来没有必要向
myself to to a bunch of people who were
一群
that displeased to see me I noticed that
不高兴见到我的人介绍自己 我注意到
Vera had a stand but they were
维拉有立场，但他们
apprehensive to chat to me in fact none
害怕和我聊天，事实上没有什么
of the big corporations were interested
大不了的 企业有兴趣
in talking about their Forest offset
谈论他们的森林抵消
programs if either of you are up for
计划，如果你们中的任何一个愿意
chatting at any point I'd love to do a
随时聊天，我很乐意做一次
quick interview I'm chatting to everyone
简短的采访，我正在与每个人聊天，你
what is your take on that at this point
现在对此有何看法，
so I don't have a take that's for you to
所以我不 有一个需要你
give me I would have to check with my
给我的意见，我必须检查我的
communications yeah yeah of course yeah
通讯是的，是的，当然是的，
yeah the Italian oil company and I are
是的，意大利石油公司，我在
here sorry did you manage to speak to
这里，抱歉，你是否设法与
your Communications person about whether
你的通讯人员谈谈
we could have a chat um no not really
我们是否可以聊天，嗯，不 不太
okay yeah L'Oreal yeah that's L'Oreal
好 是的 欧莱雅 是的，那是欧莱雅
and I was wondering if you'd be up for a
，我想知道您是否愿意
chat no no no and I'd love to get the
聊天 不不不，我很想听听在
perspective of someone who works for an
energy company would en you be up for
能源公司工作的人的观点，您愿意吗
doing a quick chat not now I don't think
不是现在进行快速聊天，我不认为
we're still keeping under the we're
我们仍然保持在我们
keeping under a little bit I'm asking
保持在一点点的状态下，我问了
relatively easy questions but even
相对简单的问题，但
despite that people are still reluctant
尽管如此，人们仍然不愿意和
to talk to me which makes me question
我说话，这让我产生疑问
what are they word I'm going to
他们说什么，我要
ask the industry is under so much fire
问的是，
uh ever since the guardan article and
自从《卫报》的文章和
everybody else so that Guardian article
其他人发表以来，这个行业就受到了如此多的批评，以至于《卫报》的文章
upset like a lot of people some people
像很多人一样感到不安，有些人
were very disappointed to found out that
非常失望地发现
the credits they bought were not real a
他们购买的积分是 不是真的，
lot of people think the carbon credits
很多人认为碳信用额
are a scam there's a lot of really good
是一个骗局，有很多非常好的
projects there are also a lot of uh very
项目，也有很多呃非常有
questionable projects and that's the
问题的项目，这就是
truth what's your view on the offset
事实，你对抵消市场的看法是什么，
Market um it has its own place um okay I
它有自己的位置，好吧，我
feel like you're not telling me your
感觉你并没有告诉我你
actual view on the offset Market it
对抵消市场的实际看法，这
depends who uses carbon credits and for
取决于谁使用碳信用额以及出于
what purpose okay so for example shol
什么目的，好吧，例如
British Airways they're usually washing
英国航空公司，他们通常会用
their hands with carbon credits okay
碳信用额洗手，好吧
yeah I think a lot of the the issue
是的，我认为很多 问题
comes around the fact that they're sold
是这样的：他们出售
these carbon credits as removing
这些碳信用额是为了
permanently some carbon from the atmosph
从大气中永久去除一些碳，是的，这
yes that's not true is
不是真的，是的，
it it's it's um okay you can tell cuz
是的，嗯，好吧，你可以告诉我，因为
I'm looking at the
我正在看着
ceiling I was wondering if you would be
天花板，我想知道你是否愿意
up for chatting to us a bit about the
准备好与我们聊聊
whole ver thing okay maybe
整个事情吗？好吧，也许
afterwards yeah can you can I send you
之后是的，我可以给你发
an email address to to engage with first
一个电子邮件地址，以便首先与您联系吗？
okay I've just coming to this Corridor
好吧，我刚刚来到这个走廊，
so no one can hear me basically
所以没有人能听到我的声音，基本上
everyone's a little antsy about us being
每个人都有点坐立不安 关于我们在
here Vera in particular keep kind of
这里的事情，维拉特别是
like running away from me when I try and
当我尝试与他们交谈时，她有点像逃离我，
speak to them so I'm I'm going to try
所以我会尝试
and get them on the way out of this next
让他们摆脱下一次
talk and see if they'll actually chat to
谈话，看看他们是否真的会 和我聊聊
me about the nitty-gritty of what's
actually in these carbon offset products
这些碳抵消产品中实际成分的本质，
I was just wondering if you had spoken
我只是想知道您是否已与
to your Communications people and
您的通讯人员交谈过，以及
whether they had allowed you to speak
他们是否允许您
to it might take a minute okay cool I
交谈可能需要一分钟，好吧，我会的，我
I'll I'll I'll I'll come back I'll come
会的 我会，我会回来，我会
back in the morning before I headed to
在早上回来，然后前往
the second day of the conference I dug a
第二天的会议。我对
bit deeper into Cambodian Vera projects
柬埔寨维拉项目进行了更深入的研究，
all right so I've just found out about
所以我刚刚发现了有关
the forestry project in Cambodia in a
林业项目的信息 柬埔寨在一个
place called Southern cardamum it's run
叫南豆蔻的地方，由一个
by organization called Wildlife Alliance
叫野生动物联盟的组织运营，
they've sold carbon credits to companies
他们向
like Stella McCartney Gucci Air France
Stella McCartney、Gucci Air France
and delu there are allegations that
和 delu 等公司出售碳信用额，有指控称
there are human rights abuses being
carried out on the indigenous
populations in these forests it's
这些森林中的土著居民侵犯人权。
actually being investigated by Human
实际上正在接受
Rights Watch so Vera who had verified
人权观察组织的调查，所以验证了
this project have put it on pause so I'm
该项目的维拉已暂停该项目，所以我将
going to try and find some local
尝试找到一些
journalists who've been investigating it
一直在调查该项目的当地记者，
what do the local indigenous communities
当地土著社区对
think about what Wildlife Alliance is
野生动物联盟正在做的事情有何看法
doing
there when they see the while they just
当他们看到他们在
run sometime
while they burn their Farm yes so
烧毁农场时奔跑的时候，是的，所以
Wildlife Alliance has actually burned
野生动物联盟实际上烧毁了
their Farms
他们的农场，
down yeah yeah a few of
是的，
them were arrested why did they burn the
他们中的一些人被捕了，为什么他们烧毁了
Farms um they they burn the farm because
农场，嗯，他们烧毁了农场，因为
they think that the indigenous people
他们认为 他们
they grow in the Farmland is it Wildlife
在农田里生长的土著人民是野生动物
Alliance or is it the government that
联盟还是政府在
patrols the forest both of them they
森林里巡逻他们
they they have can Community they also
他们都可以社区他们也
said they want to protect their Forest
说他们也想保护他们的森林
too but the don't give them the
但不给他们
opportunities on the one hand it appears
机会 一方面，
this organization is doing a decent job
这个组织似乎在
protecting the forest Wildlife Alliance
保护森林野生动物联盟方面做得不错，
but I don't know how I feel about kind
但我不知道我对
of local indigenous people being
当地土著人民的感受如何，他们
terrified of armed groups going around
害怕武装团体到处
telling them they can't cut down trees
告诉他们他们不能砍伐树木，
and can't Farm here or there when it's
也不能' 在这里或那里农场，
all basically just to make giant
基本上只是为了让
corporations in the west feel better
西方的大公司
about themselves if I get a chance I'm
对自己感觉更好，如果我有机会，我
going to ask Vera about this in today's
会在今天的会议上向维拉询问此事，
conference so Matt the media team from
所以来自维拉的媒体团队马特
Vera have said to the timing in short
已经说过了时机 在
notice might be a bit challenging but
短时间内可能会有点挑战性，但
we'll see what we can do let's see if
我们会看看我们能做些什么，让我们看看
they actually do appear for some kind of
他们是否真的参加某种
interview because they should be able to
面试，因为他们应该能够立即
answer these questions right off the bat
回答这些问题，
it is their jobs thank
这是他们的工作，
you hey how's it going um so I spoke to
谢谢，嘿，怎么样 事情进展顺利，所以我和
your communication officer they said
你的通讯官员谈过，他们说
they would try and find a time today did
他们会尝试今天找个时间，
they speak to you no okay the last I
他们和你谈过吗？好的，上次我
heard Joel was going to set something up
听说乔尔要安排
for another time it's not about my
另一次的事情，这与我是否
willingness to speak about what our com
愿意谈论什么无关 我们的通讯
team wants to do so got it okay I'm
团队想要这样做，没问题，我
absolutely desperate to talk to to Vera
非常渴望与维拉交谈
and ask them like at least one question
并问他们至少一个问题，
but since I don't know whether this
但由于我不知道这次
interv is going to happen I've just
采访是否会发生，我刚刚
realized that they're on a panel in the
意识到他们' 在接下来的五分钟内我们将参加一个小组会议，
next five minutes so I'm going to go and
所以我将去
try and ask them a question there to
尝试问他们一个问题，以
have separate biodiversity credits or
获得单独的生物多样性信用，或者
you're going to use them
您将使用它们，
as yeah there's a forestry project in
因为是的，柬埔寨南小豆蔻有一个林业项目，该项目已经在 被
South cardamon in Cambodia that's been
accused of Human Rights abuses a
指控侵犯人权 你
question for Vera did you verify this
向维拉提出一个问题，你验证了这个
project and so what's your response to
项目吗？你对这些的回应是什么？
these
I actually don't have any of that
我手头上实际上没有任何
information um on hand so I can't answer
信息，所以我无法回答
that question but so it was um there
这个问题，但是，嗯，
were accusations that um people were
有指控 嗯，人们是，
that property was burned to local
indigenous people um by the wildlife
Alliance which managed the
管理该
project yeah I'm sorry I don't have the
项目的野生动物联盟烧毁了当地土著人民的财产，是的，很抱歉，我没有
the details um that is a project that
详细信息，嗯，这是一个
has gone through our system but also if
已经通过我们系统的项目，但如果
that project is under review it would
该项目 正在审核中，因此
not be appropriate to talk about during
不适合在审核期间讨论，
the review because we are an independent
因为我们是一个独立的
standard body okay well um if you're up
标准机构，好吧，嗯，如果您
for speaking about it further um we can
愿意进一步谈论它，嗯，我们可以
chat
afterwards uh any further
稍后再聊，呃，有任何其他
questions sorry did you want to chat to
问题，抱歉，您想聊天吗
yeah I'm okay
是的，我很好，
guys Okay so we've just been asked to
伙计们，好吧，所以我们刚刚被要求
stop filming at the conference because I
停止在会议上拍摄，因为我
asked a question about alleged human
问了一个关于
rights abuses in any situation where
在任何情况下
you're a journalist and a simple
你是记者的涉嫌侵犯人权的问题，这是一个简单的
question especially in our case one
问题，特别是在我们已经发生的案例中
that's already been publicly reported
被公开报道
leads to you being asked to stop filming
会导致你被要求停止拍摄，
it just raises more questions and it's
这只会引发更多问题，
not a good look to avoid scrutiny if
如果
your goal is to save the planet and this
你的目标是拯救地球，那么避免审查并不是一个好主意，这
isn't just about money then surely the
不仅仅是金钱的问题，那么肯定
more scrutiny the better but I wasn't
审查越多越好，但我 并
too worried because I thought we still
不太担心，因为我认为我们仍然
had access to the carbon forward
可以参加
conference that Vera was also attending
维拉也参加的碳前瞻会议，
but then we got an email now we had
但后来我们收到了一封电子邮件，现在我们已经获得了
press accreditation to this conference
这次会议的新闻认证，
but mysteriously all of a sudden after
但在
we asked that question to Vera today our
我们今天向维拉提出这个问题后，突然神秘起来 我们的
invites have disappeared and apparently
邀请函消失了，显然
there's no more
没有更多的
space while my producers got on the case
空间了，而我的制作人正在讨论
on how to get into the event I did some
如何参加该活动，我对柬埔寨的
more research into Vera projects in
Vera 项目做了更多研究，
Cambodia so an article's just come out
所以刚刚发表了一篇
about the tum ring project in Cambodia
关于柬埔寨 TURN RING 项目的文章，
you can see from satellite imagery that
您可以看到 从卫星图像
it looks like most of the forest is gone
看来，大部分森林都消失了，
so I'm going to try and get one of the
所以我要尝试联系一位
journalists who did this investigation
进行这项调查的记者，
on the line what is going on in the
Turing project really high deforestation
图灵计划中发生了什么，真正严重的森林砍伐
is is what's going on you're seeing like
就是你所发生的事情
just from s images you can see like huge
从图片中你可以看到
sedes the forest have been lost is this
森林已经消失了，这就是
Turing product in particular is it
图灵产品，它是否得到了
verified yeah this is has various damp
验证是的，这是有各种
of approval are carbon offset credits
批准的，碳抵消信用额
still selling based on this Forest
仍在基于这片森林进行销售吗？
they're still on the market they are
在市场上，他们正在
pushing to to do performs because
推动执行，因为
investors are getting
投资者变得
nervous all right so it's 7: a.m. I'm in
紧张，好吧，所以现在是早上 7 点。我在
a van outside the carbon forward
碳前瞻性会议外的一辆面包车里，
conference another corporate forestry
另一场企业林业
conference and the chief legal imp
会议和维拉的首席法律顾问
policy person for Vera is going to be
政策人员将是
there this is the guy from Vera who we
这是来自维拉的那个人，我们
need to ask some questions to basically
需要问他一些问题，基本上
I've got a button camera right here
我这里有一个按钮相机，
which CS into theel he's got one as well
他也有一个，
so make sure you just kind of hover near
所以确保你只是在
this guy and near me and then you'll be
这个人和我附近徘徊，然后 你将能够
able to pick up the questions that we
回答我们
ask him and yeah hopefully we don't get
问他的问题，是的，希望我们不会被
kicked out we've all got fake
踢出去，我们都有假
names
名字，那
is that definitely him let's do it now
绝对是他，让我们现在就做吧，
yeah hey is it Robin from Vera hey good
嘿，是来自维拉的罗宾吗，嘿，很高兴
to see you again we met at conference a
看到 我们不久前在会议上再次见到你
while ago oh yes um yeah so you work for
哦，是的，所以你为
Vera right yes that's right yes okay so
维拉工作，是的，是的，是的，好的，所以
I was wondering I had a couple questions
我想知道我有几个问题，
how come um Vera is still verifying the
为什么维拉仍在验证
Tom Ring project even though there's
汤姆环项目，尽管已经发生
been widescale
了大规模的
deforestation so okay where are you
森林砍伐 那么，好吧，你在哪里，
sorry what your name is uh Kim cway from
抱歉，你叫什么名字，来自
forest stre ESA oh okay yeah um so
森林街 ESA 的 Kim cway 哦，好吧，嗯，所以图明，是的，说实话，
tuming yeah I'm afraid I don't know
我担心我
enough about the specific projects to be
对具体项目了解不够，
honest okay so this is a picture of the
好吧，所以这是一张嗯的照片
um the forest so have you seen these
森林，你看过这些
images was this recent this one is
图片了吗，是最近的，这张图片的
deforestation greater or less than what
森林砍伐程度
we than what was supposed to happen
比我们之前预计发生的森林
before up to 22% deforestation
砍伐率高出22%，
yeah quite but does that worry you to
是的，但是这会让你担心吗，
see that cuz this is the one of the
因为这是其中之一
things I'm I'm so curious about how
我很好奇
carbon offsetting works well I mean I
碳补偿是如何运作的 我的意思是我
guess for for me the question is it more
想对我来说问题是它
or less than what would have happened um
或多或少会发生什么如果
without the I don't know the answer the
没有我不知道答案
way the C government kind of verifies
C政府那样 验证
these projects is they only count 10% of
这些项目的方法是，它们只计算 10% 的
the trees so you can chop down 9% of the
树木，因此您可以砍伐 9% 的
forest and would still count as forested
森林，但仍然算作森林覆盖，
this is let me I will make a note of
这是让我做的，我会记下
this and get back get back to you on
这一点，然后再回复您，
this okay I mean I'll be right up front
好吗？ 我的意思是我会在前面说它
it'ser than
比
theine right right right but ver still
你对对对，但 ver 仍然
verifies it right so would you tell like
验证它是正确的，所以你会像
Marathon T that their carbon credits are
Marathon T 一样告诉他们他们的碳信用额不再
no longer
valid what theine to we would make the
有效，
project so would you do that then for
你会做这个项目吗？ 那么对于
this project I don't know enough about
这个项目，我对此了解不够，
it
but than what they
但比他们的了解
yes okay okay and is it true that 90% of
还好，好吧，90％的经过
the kind of ver verified carbon credits
验证的碳信用额真的
are worthless like that Guardian article
像卫报文章所说
said I think so our conversation was cut
的那样毫无价值吗？我认为，所以我们的谈话被
short as Robin had to take to the stage
打断了 因为罗宾必须上台
for his talk but not long after that I
演讲，但不久之后，
was approached by the event
活动
[Music]
[音乐]
organizers and shortly after we were
组织者找到了我，在我们被
asked to leave so I was just kicked out
要求离开后不久，我就
of the conference for asking what I
因为询问我
think is a very reasonable question and
认为什么是一个问题而被踢出了会议。 这是一个非常合理的问题，
if the person whose job it is to protect
如果负责保护
these forests doesn't know that they're
这些森林的人不知道它们正在被
being cut down it raises huge questions
砍伐，那么就会
about the whole carbon offsetting
对整个碳抵消
industry and whether it really is a
行业以及它是否真的是
solution to climate
气候变化的解决方案提出巨大的疑问
change